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Google Analytics on cryptostorm sites: discussion (mostly closed...ish)

Freewheeling spot to chew the fat on anything cryptostorm-related that doesn't fit elsewhere (i.e. support, howto, &c.). Criticism & praise & brainstorming & requests for explanation... this is where it goes when it's hot & ready for action! :-)

Topic Author
1111000001111101010

Google Analytics on cryptostorm sites: discussion (mostly closed...ish)

Postby 1111000001111101010 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:54 am

{direct link: cryptostorm.org/analytics}


This is the tracker: https://www.google-analytics.com/analytics.js

Privacy policy from Google Analytics:


Privacy Information
Privacy Policy:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/

Data Collected:
Anonymous (Ad Views, Analytics, Browser Information, Cookie Data , Date/Time, Demographic Data, Hardware/Software Type, Interaction Data , Page Views , Serving Domains)
Pseudonymous (IP Address (EU PII), Search History, Location Based Data, Device ID
(EU PII))
PII (Phone Number)

Data Sharing:
Undisclosed

Data Retention:
Undisclosed

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cryptostorm_admin
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Analytics .js

Postby cryptostorm_admin » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:02 pm

0x783EA -

We've had a pretty heated staff discussion going on regarding Analytics, their .js, the relevance of it, and the best way to open the discussion to our customers & the larger community. There's a really wide variance on our team, all the way from "Google Analytics is evil malware and totally inappropriate for use by Cryptocloud" to "this is a non-issue relating to a non-problem, resulting from a fundamental misunderstanding of how browser-based scripting operates... and a distraction from real threat vectors that matter." And that's after we've searched for consensus ground over a period of many weeks! :wtf:

What we agreed, as a team, is as follows: we're jointly drafting a post to be made here on the forum, and then prominently linked to from Cryptocloud's main page (similar to how this is done, by H Magazine - R.I.P.) . There's a draft of it, but it's not ready to go live yet as there's still a few team members adding tidbits and perspectives.

Eta? Let's say by the end of this week - barring major exogenous excitement, like the NSA pwning Tor :think:

tl:dr - Analytics is a hotly debated issue on our team, and we're opening the discussion to community interaction in hopes that can help us feel more confident in the implementation decisions we're making about this - and about web-based metrics, in general.

    ~ Cryptocloud Team
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PLEASE DON'T SEND PRIVATE MESSAGES to this account, as we can't guarantee quick replies!
--> feel free to use any of our other contact channels, or post in the support forum
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Topic Author
tom

why is google analytics enabled on your website?

Postby tom » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:38 pm

If you care so much about privacy, why is google analytics enabled on your website? This seems to be the case both for cryptocloud.com and cryptocloud.org.
--tom

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Re: why is google analytics enabled on your website?

Postby Pattern_Juggled » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:38 pm

tom wrote:If you care so much about privacy, why is google analytics enabled on your website? This seems to be the case both for cryptocloud.com and cryptocloud.org.


I've taken the liberty of merging your question with a previous thread, which used to be down in the Online Privacy subforum, and then bringing that thread up here into the support forum. Hopefully, this doesn't seem inappropriate.

There's been a reply posted to that earlier query on the topic; see above, in this thread. Per that reply, looks like a more formal discussion is set to be opened on the topic - and, as such, I'll not muddy the waters with my own personal $0.02 until that takes place.

Cheers,
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Topic Author
Guest

Re: Why does this site have a Google tracker?

Postby Guest » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:56 am

Not sure your reply actually answers the question. To put it another way:
- What do you as a company gain by enabling such trackers on your websites?
- What do the visitors to your website loose in terms of privacy?

You seem to be making strong claims about privacy for your service. Enabling google trackers and others (twitter?) on your websites certainly gives an impression that goes against your claims - at least that's my feeling as a potential customer, looking for a privacy enhanced VPN service.

Speaking about this, maybe it would be useful to clarify what kind of other tracking mechanisms you are currently considering/discussing internally - and whether the readers of this forum/thread could have any weight on those decisions.

tom


Topic Author
Guest

Re: Production stats: updates on "go live" of cryptostorm

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:24 am

does it work on linux?

PS. Seriously- you make me run a google script to do captcha so I can comment? WTF!?


Topic Author
Guest

Re: Production stats: updates on "go live" of cryptostorm

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:28 am

It's not about annoying to enter phrases, that's trivial.
It's about requiring code to be run on my computer by the company that is arguably the worst privacy violator in the world.

google analitics? Why not just skip the middle man and send your web site server logs right to the three letter boys? That would be kinder actaully, since that wouldn't entail the possibility of opening forum readers computers to attack via targeted scripts.

You don't host those scripts, ergo, you don't know whats being sent/run on your visitors computers. Even if that's not the case (I'd genuanly love to be conviced of that), even if these scripts are mostly benign, and cannot be targeted via refferrer, and by some bizare happenstance the three letter proctologists are ignoring one of the worlds most extensive metadata collection and profiling systems (because it's ment for business intel??)- you're here selling a privacy solution with a website infected with scripts from (one of, if not the) worlds bigest data miner. What does captcha, or google analitics do for you, that's worth requiring (or just doing it without any notice if they don't block scripts) your forum readers to turn over their compters resources to them and even possibly opening a means for exploits to be run?

why should your customers/forum readers have to trust google to comment here?
what does it say about your comitment to privacy when this is the state of your website?

btw- techdirt allows instant anon comments with no captcha- how do they do it?

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GA & .js

Postby Pattern_Juggled » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:33 pm

There's already an existing thread on Google Analytics here, and it might be best to move these discussions over there in due course, but for now let's keep this here for ease of reference.

Guest wrote:It's about requiring code to be run on my computer by the company that is arguably the worst privacy violator in the world.

google analitics? Why not just skip the middle man and send your web site server logs right to the three letter boys? That would be kinder actaully, since that wouldn't entail the possibility of opening forum readers computers to attack via targeted scripts.


Oh, come now. There's no "requirement" that the Analytics script run for any visitor here. Anyone blocking said scripts receives exactly the same visitor experience and has exactly the same access to all forum resources; indeed, we can compare our raw Apache stats to the Analytics-generated ones & see that the majority of folks visiting the forum here disable Analytics.

Doing so is as easy as it is common. One can...

    1. deactivate javascript in the browser, across-the-board
    2. use a browser gadget like NoScript to selectively block scripts
    3. use the freely-provided Google tool to block Analytics for all sites visited.
GAoptOutTool.png


You don't host those scripts, ergo, you don't know whats being sent/run on your visitors computers.


Well, that's not really true. Javascript, as deployed in a setup like this, runs client-side. It's pretty easy to confirm this, but simply looking at the source on this very site:

Code: Select all

<title>⚶ cryptostorm.org ⚶ cryptostorm darknet forums ⚶ &bull; Post a reply</title>
<script type="text/javascript">

  var _gaq = _gaq || [];
  _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-37087425-1']);
  _gaq.push(['_setDomainName', 'cryptostorm.org']);
  _gaq.push(['_setAllowLinker', true]);
  _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']);

  (function() {
    var ga = document.createElement('script'); ga.type = 'text/javascript'; ga.async = true;
    ga.src = ('https:' == document.location.protocol ? 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js';
    var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(ga, s);
  })();

</script>


The only outside script called by this is "ga.js" from the URL google-analytics.com/js. You can find the full source at the bottom of this post, if you're curious to do a code review. It's not even obfuscated or anything, so there's no need for fancy decompiles or whatnot.

I suppose it's possible Google has hidden some sort of super-secret attack vector in that .js, but if that's really a concern then it's best to simply block the script per the three options listed above.

Even if that's not the case (I'd genuanly love to be conviced of that), even if these scripts are mostly benign, and cannot be targeted via refferrer, and by some bizare happenstance the three letter proctologists are ignoring one of the worlds most extensive metadata collection and profiling systems (because it's ment for business intel??)- you're here selling a privacy solution with a website infected with scripts from (one of, if not the) worlds bigest data miner.


With all due respects, that's rather silly.

If one wanted to "infect" one's own site with scripts one need not use Google bloody Analytics to do so; just call some dodgy shellcode via a benign-looking php library. Done. Nor, indeed, would .js be the most obvious tool for doing such things since it's interpreted and thus is rather not so easy to obfuscate.

Finally, as a review of the GA .js source confirms, there's nothing in those data that can't be collected by the NSA (or any other such entity) simply by sitting on the wire and pulling session metadata from bulk traffic. Structurally, no amount of HTTPS (i.e. TLS) armouring of the sessions would make any difference in preventing that, since HTTPS doesn't wrap session source/destination information.

Of course, someone using a privacy service isn't going to have these issues... but nor are they going to be worrying too much about GA in the first place since most all the metrics derived by GA depend on access to physical IP... which a privacy services (a good one, anyhow) of course prevents.

(yes, there's .js-based attacks that pull physical IP from within an otherwise-proxied browser - see also torsploit - but anyone really worried about such things is going to simply disable .js)

What does captcha, or google analitics do for you, that's worth requiring (or just doing it without any notice if they don't block scripts) your forum readers to turn over their compters resources to them and even possibly opening a means for exploits to be run?


CAPTCAs are a category of tool to distinguish human posters from automated bots. Of course, requiring folks to register in order to post does away with the need for posting CAPTCHAS for guests... but we've decided a long time ago to keep anonymous guest posting here on the forum and, pretty much, that means some kind of CAPTCHA.

Not really anything to do with Analytics, that. As to why the GA scripts are enabled, the simple answer is that they make Google happy. Doing so helps ensure that threads here get indexed properly, and are thus visible to more folks - which is kind of the point of running a public forum in the first place. So, if we want to do the best educational work we can do - which is what this forum does - then we sort of have to run GA... either that, or have some sort of SEO magic-fu that we simply don't have.

We're not marketing mavens. We're network security folks.

why should your customers/forum readers have to trust google to comment here? what does it say about your comitment to privacy when this is the state of your website?


Again, nobody need run GA to post here, read stuff here, or participate here. And, again per above, there's already a thread here discussing GA - so it's not like it's some secret magic.

As to a commitment to privacy, well... the whole point of enabling guest posting here in the first place is to ensure folks can post with full anonymity. Which is, we'll all agree, congruent with privacy respect.

btw- techdirt allows instant anon comments with no captcha- how do they do it?


Techdirt's running a bespoke commenting system, not a full-fledged forum. It's nicely-done and they've been tuning it for ten years... it's also advertising-supported and calls all manner of external websites, scripts, and other whatnot stuffs as part of their revenue model (which is entirely disclosed and entirely appropriate, imho). Note this snippet from their templating architecture:
techdirtComments.png

(they use gravar, which for me personally is somewhere close to doing a deal with the devil himself... but I'm just not a fan of the entire gravatar methodology & never have been)

Plus, perhaps tellingly, techdirt runs Google Analytics. Note the header scripts:
techdirtAnalytics.png


Timothy Geigner posted a really nice summary of the challenges and opportunities of comment system management - which isn't quite the same level of challenge as running a full-scale discussion board like this (nobody hand-codes discussion boards, for example, due to the complexity and likely risk of unpatched bugs resulting from any such effort - thus the popularity of opensource tools like phpBB, which we use here). Quoting from that essay...

Don't lock down your comments. Don't kill off anonymity. Don't pretend the trolls and jerks don't exist. Do the opposite. Open it all up and trust in your community to be smart enough to react accordingly. I know that's largely what occurs here at Techdirt and elsewhere.

And I can't tell you how thankful I am for it and for everyone here, from those that generally agree with us to those that don't. You're welcome here. Forever and always.


One thing Techdirt does is rely on some community-driven flagging of spammy comments - which is an excellent approach. It's something I'd love to see us work towards here, although I don't know of any canned tools to enable such capabilities for phpBB... perhaps someone reading this will have good pointers. There's always room to improve and here on this forum, that's certainly true.

It's a challenge for us, eh? This isn't a profit-driven resource, the forum here. Sure, it indirectly promotes cryptostorm... but that's not even close to enough to justify the work that goes into maintaining this resource. We do this because we want to be sure the articles and commentary hosted here remains available, easy to access, and uncensored. It's quite a bit of work - we've some volunteer moderators that help out with the day to day, but much of it ends up falling back on the cryptostorm staff in the end. And, in the end, our primary focus is on network maintenance and member support.

Hopefully, as time goes on, we can improve the running of the forum and keep things getting smoother and better all along! :-)
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GA .js code in full

Postby Pattern_Juggled » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:33 pm

Per above, the full call of the GA scripts:

Code: Select all

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null;b()};d.onerror=function(){d.onload=null;d.onerror=null;b()}},hf=function(a,b){var c,d=("https:"==J[z][A]||M.G?"https://ssl.google-analytics.com":"http://www.google-analytics.com")+"/p/__utm.gif",e=W.XDomainRequest;if(e)c=new e,c.open("POST",d);else if(e=W.XMLHttpRequest)e=new e,"withCredentials"in e&&(c=e,c.open("POST",d,!0),c.setRequestHeader("Content-Type","text/plain"));if(c)return c.onreadystatechange=function(){4==c.readyState&&(b(),c=null)},c.send(a),!0},Ee=function(a,b){if(J.body){a=aa(a);
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...just a scatterbrained network topologist & crypto systems architect……… ҉҉҉

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DesuStrike
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Re: Google Analytics on cryptostorm-related sites: discussio

Postby DesuStrike » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:20 pm

This is something that really is kind of a sad thing for me and I struggled a long time if I should address this topic or not but I just have to.

Cryptostorm is in my opinion the most open, comprehensible and maybe secure VPN out there. The team is battle hardened, is one of the two companies I know that committed privacy Seppuku and I won't trust anybody else with my privacy. Right now I am forced to switch to my old provider but this comes with lots of deprivations in my surfing habit, so I can't wait until the German exit node is available so I can switch back.

But there is one thing that does not fit and makes me feel very sad and it's the fact that you, with all your technical knowledge and sensitivity for the feelings of privacy concerned people are using Google Analytics.

I read both threads and let me tell you in all openness that I find your justifications for using this script absolutely weak.

In my opinion it doesn't matter that you do not technically force anybody using this script because it is easy to block and every sane human being should use Ghostery or equivalents anyways. It is just plain wrong to use such a thing at all and almost schizophrenic if you think about the fact that we have a thread about how to stop browser identity leaks on this forum. Especially when you are a team like the CryptoStorm team that knows about privacy and security and that (justifiably) brags about being one of the few VPN services that do things right. Maybe you are even the best. But that makes it only worse.

You are badly discrediting yourself by doing this. Badly!

Let me go into more detail:

1. If I didn't knew better the justification that you can block the script would sound like a bad joke to me. By utilizing this script it gives the impression that you basically bet on some inexperienced users to not blocking this script so you can gather the accumulating information. If you really want to use this script but give newbies a chance to not participate in the information gathering process you need some kind of entrance page in front of the Main Page and this Forum that explicitly warns the user about you using this script and giving him a link to the Google Opt-Out Addon or Ghostery or something else. This is the only somewhat moral way for a VPN-Provider to use such a script. I know that it is abysmal publicity but that should make you question even more why the hell to deploy such a script.

2. The cooperation with Google, one of the greatest enemies to privacy on the Internet (no matter what they pretend to be), in itself is a absolute NO GO for a VPN provider. You wouldn't use Google Mail for Mail correspondence with the community, would you? I think not and we all know why. So why is it ok to throw usage information of the community onto the same company you rightly do not trust with your correspondence?
We use CryptoStorm to avoid being spied on but at the same time the service we trust our information with is cooperating with one of the companies we want to avoid.

3. I see no reason for you to gather user/usage information with Google Analytics. Apache already offers a certain level of usage information for you to gather. As a service provider it is always nice to have more detailed information but as a VPN provider you have some restrictions concerning this matter. I bet you could optimize the exit nodes even more if you'd log what kind of traffic is passed through but you don't because that would betray our trust and go against everything a VPN stands for. Being found better by Google search is nice too but you pay a hefty price for that. You cannot have double standards when it comes to usage and user information. Either you live by your ideology and stay true to it or you discredit yourself and cast the shadow of doubt onto you.


I know these words may be harsh but I think open words are allowed and needed in a relationship lead by trust and truthfulness. I wanted to introduce more people to CryptoStorm but I really don't know how to adequately respond to questions about Google Analytics that undoubtedly will arise if I do so. I maybe trust you but how can I convince someone else to trust you when already your website and forum is FUBAR? In my opinion this whole issue deserves a spot in the "netsecurity fails" sub forum.

I don't know how much my opinion and views are worth for you but I hope that I was able to at least start some kind of rethinking about this topic.
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acid1c
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Re: Google Analytics on cryptostorm-related sites: discussio

Postby acid1c » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:54 pm

In the end the GA script it just that; Analytics. As mentioned here, Noscript and/or Ghostery is highly recommended by me for privacy across the web. Are there alternative ways to track site stats? yes. But are they as powerful as GA? I don't know.

Let's just redefine analytics while were at it huh? :D

But you need a good defense/discipline to keep your anonymity.

Google as well is full of tech heads. Some may follow the same ethos we do. No one will know though unless they become known. just a thought.
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Re: Google Analytics on cryptostorm-related sites: discussio

Postby DesuStrike » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:58 pm

Google is no more good or evil than any other big company that makes the major part of its money with advertising and data mining. It doesn't even matter that they are a US-Company that has to follow the Patriot Act or other bullshit.

It's about the fact that these companies have rightfully a bad reputation with almost every seriously privacy concerned individual. VPN providers are the exact opposite of those companies. Their job is to gather as little information as possible themselves and protect you from others snooping on you.

You discredit yourself and the good work you do if you cooperate with companies like Google that have a directly contrary mindset like you should have. It's like a peace organization buying services from Heckler & Koch. You don't have to hate Heckler & Koch for finding this a very contradictory relationship that badly damages the reputation of the peace organization. (I practice shooting sport.) People will wonder why they chose a weapons dealer if they stand for peace and disarming. They will start questioning their intentions and if they will stay true to their ideals.

In my opinion the same is happening here with Cryptostorm using Google Analytics.

I personally trust Cryptostorm enough to condone this fact because I have enough insight and I am in pretty good contact with PJ who is coordinating everything and doing an awesome job. But I will have problems to justify this faux pas to my friends or anyone else and I think others will just turn on their heel when they get greeted by GA Script on a VPN Providers website.

I hope everybody understands that this is not me hating on Cryptostorm or me putting on a show but just me being concerned about something I learned to care for in the last few weeks. I want this VPN to become big and successful again but it deeply hurts my sense of privacy and morale when I see such a script being deployed on such an awesome website/forum. :(

GA is just a special form or dragnet that gathers as much information from as many websites possible. Google wouldn't offer such a script if they would not profit from it in some way. As a VPN provider you should not cater to these desires of a very questionable company.

I hope you now get what I mean, acid1c.
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acid1c
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Re: Google Analytics on cryptostorm-related sites: discussio

Postby acid1c » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:45 am

Touche, Desu :D
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[RESOLVED]

Postby cryptostorm_team » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:44 pm

.ga has been removed from the forum, during the recent server-side upgrades & style migration.

The community has spoken & we've followed that guidance.

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DesuStrike
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Re: Google Analytics on cryptostorm-related sites: discussio

Postby DesuStrike » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:40 pm

Thank you very much for following the community with this. It shows that the "peer reviewed" sub title is not just a marketing gag but a solid fact. :)
This script was a stain on cryptostorms vest that didn't suit a project like this in the post Snowden era.
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