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Ξ we're rolling out voodoo network security across cryptostorm - big things happening, indeed! Ξ
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Search found 47 matches

by Baneki
Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:40 pm
Forum: #cleanVPN ∴ encouraging transparency & clean code in network privacy service
Topic: Torguard "stealthvpn" vs cryptostorm
Replies: 6
Views: 13054

Stealth.256Bit.AES.txt.ovpn

client dev tun proto udp remote-random remote 89.248.172.172 53 remote 184.75.210.42 53 remote 184.75.209.122 443 remote 184.75.208.130 443 resolv-retry 5 nobind tun-mtu 1500 tun-mtu-extra 32 mssfix 1450 persist-key persist-tun ca ca.crt auth-user-pass comp-lzo route-delay 5 30 script-security 3 sy...
by Baneki
Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:00 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: mullvad.net
Replies: 18
Views: 23898

mullvad.net

{direct link: mullvad.cryptostorm.org } Cofiguration files and keying materials, as published. mullvadconfig.zip Certificate: Data: Version: 3 (0x2) Serial Number: 1212117 (0x127ed5) Signature Algorithm: sha1WithRSAEncryption Issuer: C=NA, ST=None, L=None, O=Mullvad, CN=master.mullvad.net/emailAddr...
by Baneki
Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:04 pm
Forum: cryptostorm in-depth: announcements, how it works, what it is
Topic: Sabotage The System: Encryption as Monkeywrench (2600)
Replies: 0
Views: 6633

Sabotage The System: Encryption as Monkeywrench (2600)

{direct link: monkeywrench.cryptostorm.org } Sabotage The System: Encryption as Surveillance State Monkeywrench (Summer 2014 edition, 2600 magazine) 519BS7M06CL._SL1500_.jpg Since Snowden's 2013 disclosures confirmed longstanding assumption that the NSA and other Western spy agencies have secretly ...
by Baneki
Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:07 pm
Forum: cryptostorm in-depth: announcements, how it works, what it is
Topic: Extra-Legal Harassment (2600 Magazine - spring 2013)
Replies: 0
Views: 12791

Extra-Legal Harassment (2600 Magazine - spring 2013)

{direct link: extralegal.cryptostorm.org } {as published in the spring 2013 issue of 2600 magazine ~Baneki} Extra-Legal Harassment Lately, the daily news cycle has been filled with the story of Chen Guancheng, a Chinese human rights activist, self-taught lawyer... and target of what is routinely de...
by Baneki
Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:22 am
Forum: #cleanVPN ∴ encouraging transparency & clean code in network privacy service
Topic: NordVPN: fake "server status" page
Replies: 8
Views: 16666

Re: NordVPN: fake "server status" page

PoC code (such as it is) for generationof the raw server load numbers via query to NordVPN:

Code: Select all

[root@abox games]# for x in `seq 1 10`;do GET https://nordvpn.com/servers/|grep  status_co|head -1|awk '{print $3}'|awk -F'"' '{print $1}';done


h/t @df_cryptostorm
by Baneki
Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:29 am
Forum: member support & tech assistance
Topic: Issue Accessing Sony Online Entertainment
Replies: 4
Views: 4699

Sony's security still sucks (h/t @LulzSec)

It's also not helping that their "secure" web browsing certs are a total mess . Invalid expiry dates, invalid creation dates, mismatch with canonical TLD and subdomain mappings... given that Sony's been pwned by folks over and over in years past ( [viz LulzSec & Co.), it's somewhat ast...
by Baneki
Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:49 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust
Replies: 6
Views: 19884

Re: Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust

Chilling data point from OHV; this was, in hindsight, a hell of a leak - had FH been watching closely, they could have used this datum to escalate their risk assessment of circumstances enormously - not to mention Tormail users (who unfortunately didn't know their data was stored on a cheap dedi wit...
by Baneki
Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:58 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust
Replies: 6
Views: 19884

h/t @BrianKrebs

Here's a link to the original reporting on the underlying story of a carder ring in Florida that's serving as convenient front for, err "was the way the FBI first got access to" (according to the Fed disinfo), the NSA/FBI fishing expedition within the Tormail data: http://krebsonsecurity.c...
by Baneki
Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:31 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust
Replies: 6
Views: 19884

Wired reiterated blown FBI cover story - wtf?

Wired , via Kevin Poulsen, has also written on this topic . Inexplicably, they're continuing to parrot the discredited "FBI did Torsploit" storyline... even after Snowden's leaks put a stake in the heart of that particular lie. Bizarre. Our comment in reply : The #Torsploit attack , which...
by Baneki
Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:15 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust
Replies: 6
Views: 19884

Tormail servers pwned by"FBI" during FH bust

{direct link: tormail.cryptostorm.org } FBI has cloned an entire Tormail server It knows what you did last summer By Chris Merriman | Mon Jan 27 2014, 17:18 AMERICAN TERRORISM FIGHTER the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has a complete copy of a Tormail server and is using it in investigati...
by Baneki
Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:22 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Insecurities in the Linux /dev/random (pdf, via Schneier)
Replies: 1
Views: 7766

Insecurities in the Linux /dev/random (pdf, via Schneier)

Insecurities in the Linux /dev/random October 14, 2013 New paper : " Security Analysis of Pseudo-Random Number Generators with Input: /dev/random is not Robust ," by Yevgeniy Dodis, David Pointcheval, Sylvain Ruhault, Damien Vergnaud, and Daniel Wichs. Abstract : A pseudo-random number ge...
by Baneki
Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:45 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: How to use Tor web browser securely? [Freedom fighting]
Replies: 5
Views: 12276

Re: How to use Tor web browser securely? [Freedom fighting]

Here's an excellent summary, via the Tor Project, of known risk factors in being unmasked when using the service as a fulltime, OS-level network connectivity proxy; most will also be relevant for browser-only users, and are well worth taking the time to study prior to assuming Tor can protect agains...
by Baneki
Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:02 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: TLS session tickets - IETF RFC
Replies: 0
Views: 6699

TLS session tickets - IETF RFC

Transport Layer Security (TLS) Session Resumption without Server-Side State Network Working Group J. Salowey Request for Comments: 5077 H. Zhou Obsoletes: 4507 Cisco Systems Category: Standards Track P. Eronen Nokia H. Tschofenig Nokia Siemens Networks January 2008 Status of This Memo This document...
by Baneki
Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:27 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: The "Nash algorithm"
Replies: 1
Views: 7286

The "Nash algorithm"

Was Nash algorithm actually NKS? The NSA has recently declassified some letters written to them by Dr. John Nash in the 1950's, detailing a design for a cryptological device. http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/pres...h_exhibit.shtml in reading the letters, it seems the NSA rejected the design because t...
by Baneki
Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:58 pm
Forum: #cleanVPN ∴ encouraging transparency & clean code in network privacy service
Topic: The One Time Pad
Replies: 2
Views: 8863

The One Time Pad

Pics... or it didn't happen. It happened : OTP.png Our Encryption In spite of what some people say, encryption really does work, it really can protect you. Governments, banks and professional spies rely on encryption. If it didn't work, would they use it? Encryption uses a series of digits (the &quo...
by Baneki
Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:06 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Kerckhoff's Principles, original paper
Replies: 0
Views: 6074

Kerckhoff's Principles, original paper

Here's an excellent presentation of the original Kerchoff paper, as well as an OCR'd & translated version of same.
by Baneki
Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:48 pm
Forum: cryptostorm in-depth: announcements, how it works, what it is
Topic: ECC, ECDHE, DHE, "PFS" & advanced cipher suite management
Replies: 1
Views: 3909

ECC, ECDHE, DHE, "PFS" & advanced cipher suite management

{direct link: ecc.cryptostorm.org } A note on high-security general-purpose elliptic curves Diego F. Aranha, Paulo S. L. M. Barreto, Geovandro C. C. F. Pereira, and Jefferson E. Ricardini Abstract In this note we describe some general-purpose, high-efficiency elliptic curves tailored for security l...
by Baneki
Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:16 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Bell Canada weirdness?
Replies: 1
Views: 4054

Re: Bell Canada weirdness?

Sounds a bit like the old Nokia fiasco from earlier this year: http://gaurangkp.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/nokia-https-mitm/ Conclusion From the tests that were preformed, it is evident that Nokia is performing Man In The Middle Attack for sensitive HTTPS traffic originated from their phone and hence ...
by Baneki
Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:23 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Incapsula and CloudFlare - outsourced "security?"
Replies: 0
Views: 6331

Incapsula and CloudFlare - outsourced "security?"

CloudFlare vs Incapsula: Round 2 – Comparative Penetration Testing Analysis Report This document contains the results of a second comparative penetration test conducted by a team of security specialists at Zero Science Lab against two cloud-based Web Application Firewall (WAF) solutions: Incapsula ...
by Baneki
Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:02 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Academic papers on possible Tor vulns & de-cloaks
Replies: 9
Views: 19576

Anonymity Network Tor Needs a Tune-up to Protect Users...

Anonymity Network Tor Needs a Tune-up to Protect Users from Surveillance Fixes are planned for Internet anonymity tool Tor after researchers showed that national intelligence agencies could plausibly unmask users. By Tom Simonite on October 25, 2013 | MIT Technology Review When reports published ea...
by Baneki
Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:43 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Some interesting *.nsa.gov subhosts
Replies: 2
Views: 6027

cyberdouchery.nsa.gov

Here's cyberdouchery.nsa.gov's delegation info:

NSAcyberdouchery.png
by Baneki
Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:28 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Some interesting *.nsa.gov subhosts
Replies: 2
Views: 6027

Some interesting *.nsa.gov subhosts

{direct link: nsa.cryptostorm.org ~admin} From this current Robtex page : *.nsa.gov 718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699959574966967628.nsa.gov 860-490-2607.nsa.gov abracadabra.nsa.gov asymetricdouchery.nsa.gov core-3.nsa.gov corp.nsa.gov cyberdouchery.nsa.gov dsdn-gh1-uea05.nsa.gov dsd...
by Baneki
Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: A tutorial for manually "chaining" desktop VPNs
Replies: 9
Views: 25854

approving guest posts

Oh goodie, my post about cascading vpns got thru. We really appreciate the post, and apologise for the occasional delays in approving guest posts. Just to be clear: all guest posts get approved, without editing of any kind (unless the poster requests an edit be made, such as a typo, in which case w...
by Baneki
Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:06 pm
Forum: cryptostorm in-depth: announcements, how it works, what it is
Topic: [ARCHIVE] HOWTO: Mac/OSX connects via Tunnelblick
Replies: 20
Views: 20384

wireshark

(also, to be clear, confirming that a wide range of opensource, OpenVPN-based client applications can successfully connect to our darknet partially validates the statement that we're running standards-based OpenVPN libraries on the server side as well; this is far from a perfect theoretical validat...
by Baneki
Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:35 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: “What is Life?,” Erwin Schrödinger (1944; .pdf)
Replies: 1
Views: 5416

Schrödinger on entropy...

WHAT IS ENTROPY ? Let me first emphasize that it is not a hazy concept or idea, but a measurable physical quantity just like of the length of a rod, the temperature at any point of a body, the heat of fusion of a given crystal or the specific heat of any given substance. At the absolute zero point ...
by Baneki
Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:06 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Torsploit - NSA tools behind attack | CONFIRMED
Replies: 10
Views: 30062

Re: Torsploit Reloaded...

From the Washington Post : An FBI agent told an Irish court last month that Freedom Hosting, unmasked with NSA-devised techniques , was among the largest purveyors of child pornography in the world, according to news reports. Silk Road, an online market place some called “the eBay of illicit substan...
by Baneki
Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:05 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Torsploit - NSA tools behind attack | CONFIRMED
Replies: 10
Views: 30062

Re: Torsploit Reloaded...

Ok, so newly-released Snowden docs show the NSA has been working on anti-Tor techniques, for years. And, in particular, 0day bugs in Firefox as a tool for de-anonymising Tor users. Via javascript, natch. Torsploit . torsploitproof.png We await an argument to the contrary - i.e. that torsploit did no...
by Baneki
Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:03 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Academic papers on possible Tor vulns & de-cloaks
Replies: 9
Views: 19576

Locating Hidden Servers (.pdf)

Locating Hidden Servers Lasse Øverlier Norwegian Defence Research Establishment and Gjøvik University College lasse.overlier@{ffi,hig}.no Paul Syverson Naval Research Laboratory syverson@itd.nrl.navy.mil Abstract Hidden services were deployed on the Tor anonymous communication network in 2004. An-n...
by Baneki
Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:17 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: EPIC lawsuit seeking to uncover Tor subversion
Replies: 6
Views: 10197

EPIC Files FOIA Suit to Determine If Tor Is Compromised

Here is the citation directly from EPIC's site : EPIC Files FOIA Suit to Determine If Tor Is Compromised EPIC has filed a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the Broadcasting Board of Governors, a federal agency that oversees all U.S. civilian international media. EPIC seeks information about...
by Baneki
Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:18 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: Eve’s SHA3 candidate: malicious hashing
Replies: 0
Views: 5866

Eve’s SHA3 candidate: malicious hashing

Eve’s SHA3 candidate: malicious hashing Jean-Philippe Aumasson | Nagravision SA, Switzerland Abstract We investigate the definition and construction of hash functions that incorporate a backdoor allowing their designer (and only her) to efficiently compute collisions, preimages, or more. We propose...
by Baneki
Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:58 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: NSA uses a simple Google Search to catch people? Um... Ya.
Replies: 2
Views: 6096

Reuters: U.S. directs agents to cover up NSA program used...

Exclusive: U.S. directs agents to cover up program used to investigate Americans John Shiffman and Kristina Cooke | Reuters | Mon Aug 5, 2013 3:25pm EDT download.jpg A slide from a presentation about a secretive information-sharing program run by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration's Special O...
by Baneki
Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:21 pm
Forum: crypto, VPN & security news
Topic: “Chemical Trojans” baked into circuits could offer...
Replies: 1
Views: 7446

“Chemical Trojans” baked into circuits could offer...

“Chemical Trojans” baked into circuits could offer invisible way to steal secrets ROB WAUGH | 17 SEP 2013 “Hardware Trojans” could be baked invisibly into circuits by attackers, allowing them to grab secret keys from computer components without fear of detection – even by advanced inspection system...
by Baneki
Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:05 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Torsploit - NSA tools behind attack | CONFIRMED
Replies: 10
Views: 30062

Torsploit - NSA tools behind attack | CONFIRMED

{continued forward from existing Torsploit thread , to increase ease of access for newcomers to the topic ~admin} It would take sometime for the FBI to compile the list, get the names and such from the providers, and then do a risk analysis of some kind as to who they should get. They will probably...
by Baneki
Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:42 pm
Forum: #cleanVPN ∴ encouraging transparency & clean code in network privacy service
Topic: PrivateInternetAccess.com: crypto confusion & snake oil
Replies: 4
Views: 25066

Re: PIA: crypto snake oil | comment

{echoed here from underlying post , for referential integrity check ~ admin} 1. 1024 bit DH keys have been considered too short for real-world deployment for years... long before the latest NSA revelations. Anyone using them in production systems is either reckless, or foolish, or both. 2. OpenVPN ...
by Baneki
Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:35 pm
Forum: #cleanVPN ∴ encouraging transparency & clean code in network privacy service
Topic: PrivateInternetAccess.com: crypto confusion & snake oil
Replies: 4
Views: 25066

PrivateInternetAccess.com: crypto confusion & snake oil

{direct link: pia.cryptostorm.org } On Encryption Posted on September 7, 2013 by coderrr From all the news, it appears that there is one thing clear: Nobody is certain as to the exact capabilities of the NSA, other than the NSA itself. However, as soon as the limited information was released, we be...
by Baneki
Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:12 am
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: All Things StuxNet...
Replies: 1
Views: 7571

hash collisions

Here's an excellent summation of the background and implementation of the MD5 hash collision component of Flame - which, to our way of thinking, is certainly the most intriguing and the most worrisome component of the whole escapade. Note that the specific technique used to generate the hash collisi...
by Baneki
Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:51 pm
Forum: independent cryptostorm token resellers, & tokens 101
Topic: cryptostorm: All Tomorrow's Tokens... or, auth done right
Replies: 35
Views: 133407

Re: Network Tokens - darknet authentication done right

Could use more tecnical explanation. As we've worked with cryptostorm to flesh out the architectural details of the token-based auth system, we're going to take an (unofficial) stab at replying in summary form to your well-asked questions. If there's a desire for additional detail beyond these repl...
by Baneki
Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:35 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Academic papers on possible Tor vulns & de-cloaks
Replies: 9
Views: 19576

Users Get Routed: Traffic Correlation on Tor by Realistic Ad

Users Get Routed: Traffic Correlation on Tor by Realistic Adversaries Aaron Johnson | Rob Jansen | Paul Syverson U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, Washington DC {aaron.m.johnson, rob.g.jansen, paul.syverson} @nrl.navy.mil Chris Wacek | Micah Sherr Georgetown University, Washington DC {cwacek, msherr}...
by Baneki
Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:02 pm
Forum: general chat, suggestions, industry news
Topic: The Arcadia Conditions: anti-censorship topology (.pdf)
Replies: 0
Views: 7045

The Arcadia Conditions: anti-censorship topology (.pdf)

Arcadia: A Blueprint for Censorship Resistance on the Internet by Brandon Keith Wiley, B.A., B.S. Thesis Presented to the Faculty of the Graduate School of The University of Texas at Austin in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree of Master of Arts The University of Texas at Austin...
by Baneki
Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 pm
Forum: crypto, VPN & security news
Topic: New attacks against p2p privacy... to "save the children"
Replies: 2
Views: 9995

New attacks against p2p privacy... to "save the children"

Software Tracks Child Predators Peddling Porn on Peer-to-Peer Networks Oak Ridge National Laboratory engineers are readying BitPredator, a tool for tracing the source of P2P files, so it can help law enforcement crack down on child abusers By Larry Greenemeier | SciAm.com | 26 July 2013 British Pri...
by Baneki
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:10 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Academic papers on possible Tor vulns & de-cloaks
Replies: 9
Views: 19576

The Parrot is Dead: Observing Unobservable Network Communica

The Parrot is Dead: Observing Unobservable Network Communications Amir Houmansadr Chad Brubaker Vitaly Shmatikov The University of Texas at Austin Abstract In response to the growing popularity of Tor and other censorship circumvention systems, censors in non-democratic countries have increased the...
by Baneki
Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:02 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: Academic papers on possible Tor vulns & de-cloaks
Replies: 9
Views: 19576

Practical Vulnerabilities of the Tor Anonymity Network

Practical Vulnerabilities of the Tor Anonymity Network Paul Syverson Center for High Assurance Computer Systems U.S. Naval Research Laboratory Abstract Onion routing is a technology designed at the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory to protect the security and privacy of network communications. In part...
by Baneki
Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:10 pm
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: #Torsploit takedown: analysis, reverse engineering, forensic
Replies: 76
Views: 137126

all smiles...

Yep, all smiles: they know they're above the law, beyond censure, with billions of dollars of taxpayer money to play games with, in secret. What could possibly go wrong? 855071cfb1da4e819b35c27a43802f66_vice_630x420.jpg NSA chief General Keith Alexander (center, four stars) joins others at a groundb...
by Baneki
Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:42 am
Forum: privacy seppuku: data, tasks, brainstorming
Topic: Privacy Seppuku Pledge & Wall of Honour
Replies: 9
Views: 45935

Spy or Die | Foreign Policy

Spy or Die Can corporate suicide stop the NSA? BY SHANE HARRIS | AUGUST 9, 2013 | Foreign Policy When the U.S. government orders a communications company to give up its data, the firm has two basic choices: resist, and risk its leaders going to jail, or comply, and break faith with its customers. O...
by Baneki
Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:59 pm
Forum: privacy seppuku: data, tasks, brainstorming
Topic: Privacy Seppuku Pledge & Wall of Honour
Replies: 9
Views: 45935

Game Theory & #privacyseppuku - the big(ger) picture

#PrivacySeppuku: game-theoretic exploration of the asymmetric power of "no" in ephemeral, privacy-centric markets As we were part of the development of the original "corporate seppuku" pledge that Cryptocloud incorporated into their privacy policy, back in 2008, we've a good und...
by Baneki
Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:06 am
Forum: cryptostorm reborn: voodoo networking, stormtokens, PostVPN exotic netsecurity
Topic: #Torsploit takedown: analysis, reverse engineering, forensic
Replies: 76
Views: 137126

how long...?

There's been a good question asked in twitter , which sort of requires more than 140 characters to expand into its full glory; from here, our hope is that others with expertise and knowledge can contribute to answers (here or elsewhere, doesn't really matter). To wit: How long? How long was this exp...

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